Vintage Rolex/Tudor prices falling SHARPLY across the board..upto 50% from 2008/9..

Err...this is just from Orchi's own observation...
in eBay or elsewhere...
++ news gathered from a couple of hardcore dealers...

Rates shown could be +- 1K or 2K difference...
depending on its overall conditions...
Or...+- depending on its accessories or provenance...
Or...+- subject to Buy or Sell...(willing Buyer/Seller)

Rates quoted at PAWNSHOPS: May be a lot cheaper...

The PARTY is over...
Any comments...welcomed...

Best regards
Orchi.


SS/Plastic:

1665 SD White..................... down to USD9,000
1665 DRSD Mk.4 onwards............ down to USD18,000
1019 Straight second hand......... down to USD18,000
1016 Matte........................ down to USD3,500
1016 Gilt(no CR).................. down to USD5,000
5513 Matte........................ down to USD3,500
5513 Gilt(no CR).................. down to USD5,000
5513 PCG Gilt(CR)................. down to USD10,000
5513 Gilt Explorer(No CR)......... down to ????????
5513 Gilt Explorer(CR)............ down to ????????
5513 WG........................... down to USD3,000

5512 Matte........................ down to USD3,500
5512 Gilt(no CR).................. down to USD5,000
5512 Gilt(CR)..................... down to USD11,000

1680 White........................ down to USD4,000
1680 RED feet 1st................. down to USD8,000
1680 RED meter 1st................ down to USD9,500
1655 Straight second hand......... down to USD12,000
1655 Mk.3 onwards................. down to USD10,000
1675 Matte(except Mk.3 Radial..... down to USD3,500
1675 Matte(Mini Radial)........... down to USD4,500
1675 Gilt(no CR).................. down to USD6,000
1675 PCG Gilt(CR SCOC)............ down to USD8,500
1675 PCG Gilt(CR OCC)............. down to USD11,000
1675 PCG Gilt(no CR).............. down to USD6,500

16750 Matte....................... down to USD4,000
16750 WG "DATE"................... down to USD3,000
16750 WG No "DATE"................ down to USD4,000
6542 OCC Bakelite................. down to USD25,000
6542 OCC NO Bakelite.............. down to USD10,000


SS/Tudor:

714x MC........................... down to USD8,500
7928 Sub Matte.................... down to USD2,000
7928 Sub Gilt/White............... down to USD2,500
94xx/0 Sub........................ down to USD2,800
70xx/0 Sub........................ down to USD2,800
94xxx Sub......................... down to USD2,500
79xxx Sub......................... down to USD2,500
76xxx Sub......................... down to USD2,500
79xxx Chrono Plastic.............. down to USD3,500
79xxx Chrono Glass................ down to USD2,800
94xx/0 Chrono..................... down to USD4,500


SS/Sapphire:

16800 Matte....................... down to USD3,500
16800 WG.......................... down to USD3,000
168000 WG......................... down to USD3,000
16550 WG.......................... down to USD3,500
16660 WG.......................... down to USD4,000
16660 Matte....................... down to USD5,000
16700 WG.......................... down to USD3,000
16710 WG.......................... down to USD3,000
16760 WG "DATE"................... down to USD3,500
16760 WG No "DATE"................ down to USD4,000
14270 Blackout.................... down to USD5,500
16520 Inverted 9.................. down to USD9,000
16520 Upright 9(Tritium).......... down to USD8,000
16520 4 line...................... down to USD12,500


Please feel free to add to the following:-

DRSD Patent Pending:

COMEX:

PN 2C:
PN 3C:
626X:


MULTI-Tiers Buy/Sell: Many won't agree.Some may call it BS.Some agree..

Err...Orchi applies some averaging before coming up with that list...
AFTER taking into consideration of the possible...
MULTI-Tiers Buy/Sell prices at the different levels of source...
from the actual ex. owners of the watches...
which could be much LESS...on the same watches...

The good VRF Buddies are free to agree or disagree...

Orchi hopes the present collectors(NOT dealers) would understand this reminder...
DO NOT sell low UNNECESSARILY to others(Dealers)...

Please do your homework to check on the Seller's Prices...
of similar watches in the online markets...

THERE ARE several sincere n generous Collectors/Dealers around...
who could offer BETTER Buying prices...
for their collection or RESALE purpose.

All the best to everyone...
Have a Happy Weekend...

Best regards
Orchi.


Here is just a couple of examples:

1. 5513 PCG+CR+B/P Unpolished...

a. Small shop bought from a friend of the ex.owner...USD10K.(commission Usd500)
b. Lessor known Middleman(SEA) bought from smaller shop...USD12.5K
c. Middleman(SEA) bought from another lessor known Middleman(SEA)...USD14K.
d. Sold by Middleman(SEA) to a BIG Dealer in ASIA...USD17K.
e. BIG Dealer from USA flew(1st Class or Economy?)...
to ASIA recently to buy it at USD20K.
f. BIG Dealer flew back to sell the same watch...
at BIG watch show...n to the NEW Owner...USD25K?????


2. Tudor 7149/0 being listed just yesterday...
in VRM with Bracelet in good conditions...
Usd 9K + Shipping...by reputable Seller in Asia.

Price comparison from 2008 of similar piece n condition...Usd18K = 50% drop...
may be NOT sold yet.

How much would the Reputable Seller(Asia) paid for this watch...
on its previous Buy/Sell...?

How many Middlemen would be involved in the Buy/Sell of the same watch...?

How much the ex. owner would have sold for this watch...?

Best Regards
Orchi.


eBay Source: Yes..it would seem that the "Messenger" or "Whistle Blower?" might

Err...to be shot down...(Please pardon Orchi's English...
what's the difference between Messenger n Whistle Blower...?)

Nevertheless...here are just some of the recent ones...
SOLD in eBay...

Those Over 90 days period would NOT be displayed...
by eBay...as per Orchi's shallow understanding...perhaps.

Best regards
Orchi.


Relatively Newcomer Orchi wishes to ask the experts in here
to comment...

What would be the actual Buy/Sell prices of these Rolex watches...
exchanging hands along the way...
from or between UPSTREAM...vs. DownStream...???


http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Submariner-SS-Date-Black-168000-Vintage-watch-NR_W0QQitemZ260575521397QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item3cab82ea75

http://cgi.ebay.com/Genuine-1983-SS-Rolex-Submariner-Mens-Wrist-Watch-16800_W0QQitemZ300411404532QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item45f1ea40f4

http://cgi.ebay.com/Genuine-Vintage-Rolex-Submariner-Steel-16800-Watch_W0QQitemZ110512309770QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19bb0c060a

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1978-ROLEX-SUBMARINER-DATE-MENS-WATCH-1680_W0QQitemZ230454150922QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item35a823470a

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-1680-Submariner_W0QQitemZ230453608879QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item35a81b01af

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-vintage-Submariner-1680-serviced-UNPOLISHED_W0QQitemZ280485542020QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item414e3db884


http://cgi.ebay.com/1972-Rolex-1680-Submariner-w-orig-Rivet-Band-w-paper_W0QQitemZ250605587926QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item3a5941cdd6

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-Submariner-5513_W0QQitemZ230458115289QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item35a85fc4d9

http://cgi.ebay.com/COLLECTABLE-RARE-ROLEX-SUBMARINER-REF-5513-660FT-200m_W0QQitemZ300412498986QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item45f1faf42a

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-Submariner-5513-1960s-Stainless-Steel_W0QQitemZ110514278599QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19bb2a10c7

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROLEX-SUBMARINER-model-5513-s-n1765XXX-vintage-1964-65_W0QQitemZ110513880266QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19bb23fcca

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-80s-ROLEX-Submariner-Ref-5513-Box-Paper_W0QQitemZ220585049740QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item335be4be8c

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Submariner-no-date-5513-Mens-Watch_W0QQitemZ190382046802QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2c53a77e52

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Submariner-no-date-5513-Mens-Watch_W0QQitemZ190382046802QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2c53a77e52

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-5513-Submariner_W0QQitemZ330418645573QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item4cee7c6a45

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROLEX-5513-Transitional-Submariner-Stainless-Mens-Watch_W0QQitemZ150426693402QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2306212f1a


5513+Meter 1st Matte:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Submariner-5513-Meters-First-Gorgeous-Collectible_W0QQitemZ320507915690QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item4a9fc2adaa


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-GMT-Master-1675-Pepsi-Bezel-Watch-1960s_W0QQitemZ110511079627QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19baf940cb

http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Nice-Rolex-GMT-Master-Ref-1675-Mans-Watch_W0QQitemZ320506460411QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item4a9fac78fb

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-GMT-Master-1675-1-6-Mill-Series-Original_W0QQitemZ250596163664QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item3a58b20050

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-VINTAGE-Authentic-Original-1675-GMT-Master-NR_W0QQitemZ230452545492QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item35a80ac7d4

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROLEX-1675-GMT-MASTER-RETAILED-BY-TIFFANY-CO-PEPSI_W0QQitemZ110504371271QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19ba92e447


http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SS-ROLEX-GMT-MASTER-MATTE-DIAL-1675-PEPSI-BEZEL_W0QQitemZ270557350297QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item3efe798999

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-GMT-Master-Model-1675-Yr-1966-Pepsi-Bezel-Vintage_W0QQitemZ200453602807QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2eabf73df7

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-1675-GMT-Master-Punched-Papers-Set-1970_W0QQitemZ190383605757QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2c53bf47fd


http://cgi.ebay.com/Gents-Steel-Rolex-GMT-Master-Ref-16750-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ370359041598QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item563b1e7e3e


So Orchi being called out as giving NO-Value/BS is fair or not? 1019 B+P SOLD..++
April 10 2010, 12:41 PM

Err....for less at USD21,100...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-1019-Milgauss-with-Box-PUNCHED-Papers_W0QQitemZ200453051102QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2eabeed2de


Buddy JB...
Just for an example(outside of eBay)...
How much would you have bought this similar piece for...?
if you won't mind Orchi asking...

Or...IF that might get a bit sensitive...
PLEASE KINDLY advise...

PLEASE KINDLY advise...
what would be the actual prices...
along way when these watches...were exchanging hands...
between ex. owners - MiddleMEN -
shops - dealers - Middlemen - until the new owners...
from or between...UPSTREAM vs. DownStream...???

Best regards
Orchi.


eBay Source: Yes. Rolex watches with GILT Dials..SOLD recently for..++
April 10 2010, 11:58 AM

Err...a lot less in prices...

Best regards
Orchi.


eBay Source: Yes. Rolex watches with GILT Dials..SOLD recently for..++
April 10 2010, 11:58 AM

Err...a lot less in prices...

Best regards
Orchi.


Orchi is again wishing to ask in here...
what would be the actual prices...
along way when these watches...were exchanging hands...
between ex. owners - MiddleMEN -
shops - dealers - Middlemen - until the new owners...
from or between...UPSTREAM vs. DownStream...???


5513 Gilt No CR...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Submariner-5513-Black-Gilt-Dial-Authentic-Watch_W0QQitemZ380218997302QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item5886d17a36


6542 No Bakelite...(Refinished Dial)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-GMT-MASTER-6542-VINTAGE-NO-GUARD-GILT-IVqtr-1956_W0QQitemZ170466212864QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item27b093fc00


1675 Gilt + Punched booklet...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-1675-GMT-GILT-Punched-Booklet-Set-1965_W0QQitemZ200454909741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2eac0b2f2d



eBay Source: 1665 DRSD n White recently SOLD for..++
April 10 2010, 12:22 PM

Err...a lot less in prices...no?

PLEASE KINDLY advise...
what would be the actual prices...
along way when these watches...were exchanging hands...
between ex. owners - MiddleMEN -
shops - dealers - Middlemen - until the new owners...
from or between...UPSTREAM vs. DownStream...???


Best regards
Orchi.



Mk.3 DRSD: USD25.8K...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Ref-1665-Double-Red-Seadweller-Submariner-mark-3_W0QQitemZ140397282937QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item20b0548679


Mk.4 or Mk.5...SOLD for USD18.4K?
Any problem with this watch?
FAKEEE? or Good...?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rolex-Double-Red-Sea-Dweller-1665-Vintage-Watch-1970s_W0QQitemZ140394546974QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item20b02ac71e



1665 White: SOLD for USD9.2K...

Any problem with this watch...or what?


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rolex-Sea-Dweller-1665_W0QQitemZ230457194201QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item35a851b6d9


1665 White: NOT Sold for USD10K...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-MENS-ROLEX-SEA-DWELLER-DATE-RARE-1665-PLASTIC_W0QQitemZ220577265155QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item335b6df603


Glad 2C U're participating on Orchi's post again..Here's for you SOLELY..++
April 10 2010, 1:41 PM

Err...which perhaps you have missed
reading recently...

eBay 6542 OCC Bakelite + Papers + Rivet Bracelet...
SOLD for USD23K...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170440980664


eBay 1675 PCG OCC + Papers + Bracelet...
SOLD for USD10K...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370333791998&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Did you say...eBay auctions are akin to being...
a BAROMETER...???


n for Buddy Ray...
eBay does NOT keep records over 90 days...
Please observe eBay keenly...
n you shall get what you might be asking for...

One of these days...if you happen to be in the Orient...
close to Orchi...
Orchi could introduce you to the HARDCORE dealers...
n pawnshop owners from here...
n IF you are kind...n they like you...
they might let you take a peek at their books...
how much they "bought" for 5512/5513 Matte...
then resold them elswhere...


Best regards
Orchi.


There's been much decline in VRM prices too.Some are Project watches n those requiring..++
April 11 2010, 12:59 AM

Err...servicing...
having wrong bezel...
replacement hands...
replacement dials...
scratchy crystal...
rat tail lugs...
corroded cases...
rough movement...
worn out bracelets...
etc. etc.

NO...Orchi does not plug figures from thin air...
there's are enough show causes posted...

Orchi has other prices from other sources as well...
both locally n those from this region...
Some of these you would know as close friends here too...
but better stay anonymous...

IF you would choose to be in Indonesia or PNG...
prices there would be much less...
as compared with 2008/2007 or at its peak...

Although many won't like bad news...
these are close to the real thing...if not entirely true...

Don't shoot the messenger...
the news broadcaster...
or the whistle blower...
Orchi also said "DO NOT sell low UNNECESSARILY"...


Best regards
Orchi.


Here's the original thread posted in VRF...
where it received plenty of criticism in denial especially
from those Dealers n Collectors that refused to accept the fact that their stocks...
n collection of Vintage Rolex watches are worth a lot less than what they used to be...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270862260/Vintage+Rolex-Tudor+prices+falling+SHARPLY+across+the+board..upto+50%25+from+2008-9..%2B%2B

At the same time...certain BIG dealers n some veteran members do agree with Orchi's take on the matter...

Nevertheless...Orchi feels since the topic was posted in VRF...
there might have been a deliberate attempt by a certain veteran member(s) to flame the topic n conspire to setting traps along the way...for Orchi n perhaps others to fall into further irrelevant arguments which may lead to the forum Moderator(s) taking steps to lock the thread at the least...
or at worst...ultimately to delete all the thread topic entirely...
(This has happened before in VRF back in early February...
with another of Orchi's thread topic...exposing the trickery n poor ethics of the certain member - Dingomad)

Hence...this time Orchi sees the need to save a log of the relevant postings made by Orchi in that thread topic...in this blog instead.

http://orchipalar.blogspot.com/2010/02/fellow-vrf-members-are-not-foolsthey.html

*Philip*
(Login dingomad)
VRF Contributing Member
92.132.209.49
Nonsense post as long as are compared things that cant be compared.
April 10 2010, 12:40 PM

But this has been dsicussed over and over yet. sad.gif


*Philip*
(Login dingomad)
VRF Contributing Member
92.132.209.49
Pls no more posts like this one
April 10 2010, 3:18 PM

requesting VRF members to "do their homework".

Non mais je rêve!?!


*Philip*
(Login dingomad)
VRF Contributing Member
92.132.209.49
Just read again and again the (all) above. ;-)
April 11 2010, 12:29 AM

Why seeking your attention this is a bit megalo isn'it

http://orchipalar.blogspot.com/2009/05/orchi-believes-these-are-rolex-ref.html

"Orchipalar ...A Rookie Malaysian Blogger. ...A Beginner Rolex Watch Collector"


*Philip*
(Login dingomad)
VRF Contributing Member
92.132.209.49
Sparky
April 11 2010, 7:54 AM

"IMHO" - In MY Humble Opinion are the magic words to use before
imposing your views to others like a dogma... and even more when
you started collecting Rolex watches 2 years ago!
Dont you think Sparky?

I've just been proposed another 1680 Comex, it would be in my collection
today if what Orchis sayings were true.


*Philip*
(Login dingomad)
VRF Contributing Member
92.132.209.49
I was not refering at you Sparky. nt
April 11 2010, 10:12 AM


UPDATE:

There should be NO denial from these "Exclusive n RARE Vintage Rolex watches"...
n similar ones which were sold for a lot more money...vs. the falling prices recently...


1. 1665 DRSD Mk.4 with Relumed markers...being listed for Reverse Auction sale from USD17,000 n falling USD1K each week...until being SOLD...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/thread/1270964043/FS-+Double+Red+Sea-Dweller+1665+%28DRSD%29+REVERSE+AUCTION%21

2. 6239 3CRC being listed for USD69,000...(perhaps 25% less in price from a sale of similar unit previously in 2007/8...)

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/thread/1270965062/FS-+Fantastic+6239+three+color+PN+1.7+mil+serial

3. 6234 Pre-Daytona Small Register USD45,000...


http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/thread/1270965506/FS-+Fantastic+6234+small+register+Pre+Daytona+MINT%21%21%21

4. More examples from eBay: SOLD recently...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1271039947/Are+these+watches+good+deals-----


UPDATE: April 12, 2010

Instead of taking what Orchi had posted in VRF with a pinch of salt...
for those that do NOT agree with Orchi...
the denial continues...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1271034571/DRSD%2BDial+relumed%2BImperfection+in+2010-.%26quot%3BHorrible%26quot%3B+akin

DRSD+Dial relumed+Imperfection in 2010=."Horrible" akin
April 11 2010 at 8:09 PM Orchi (Login orchi)
VRF Contributing Member
from IP address 60.49.32.202


Response to Correct DRSD Mk.4 with this besides the imperfection.Some may have missed it..++
Err...being worthless...or the sunken Titanic...?

BUT only one or a couple of years or so ago...
there were plenty of hoo-hah...
like watching a head-turning sexy young virgin chick...
walking along downtown busy street in the nude...
in broad day-light...
cars honking...
glass shattering...
stopping traffic...
saliva drooling...
tongue n tail wagging...
heart stopping...
n eyes popping...out.
maybe asking for over USD20K...
describing it as RARE bird in excellent conditions...
seasoned n faded to perfection...
what is or what not...

Similar examples can be said...
about a certain nos. of other prized collection of Exclusive RARE Birds...
having corroded cases...rat tail lugs...
OR...perhaps put together with used parts...
OR...corrected to the period of time n production era...+ provenance...
OR...Dial Relumed n Case Reconditioned to perfection...
that only a handful of other experts in this world...
might be able to tell the difference...
being owned n paraded by collectors whom they were selling the RARE watches to...
their valuable clients...(whom they won't offend at any costs).

Yes Prices have dropped...(to certain extent)
even on the RAREST Birds...
with so-so conditions or NOS conditions(or close to it)...
with or without features like...
chocolate brownie...
Tropical equator...
Sahara desert...
The banks of River Nile...
Frozen tundra of the South Pole...

Example 2:

62XX 3CRC "Paul Newman" Cosmograph...
in above average conditions...
Selling for USD69,000 or less...
was a DREAM to many Buddies here...
only one or a couple of years or so...ago.

Some are saying the storm may be over...
Good days could be coming back again...
Some are saying...NOT.

Here's a good read...from the TRUE n neutral judge...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270999036/What+to+do+about+watch+prices-++Ignore+them...

All is good then...
Please ignore what Orchi has said in the last 24 hours or so...

Best regards
Orchi.


More threads related to the topic have strung up in the VRF over the last 48 hours...
by those that might have gotten their balls strung up...
denying the reality of falling prices of their average Vintage Rolex n Tudor watches...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270910552/COMEX%2C+mil+subs+and+PN+Prices+Falling+75-85%25..+market+report...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270940418/i+asked+you+for+examples+Orchi

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270999501/Whats+wrong+with+this+DSRD-

No matter how badly Orchi was hit by the negative innuendos or snipe remarks...
by the certain Buddies in VRF...
there has been some very interesting good read of additional threads that sprung up...
over the same period of time in VRF...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270920772/hey+boys%2C+all+one+has+to+do+is+look+at+the+VRM...


http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270973258/rolex+price+drop....

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1270999036/What+to+do+about+watch+prices-++Ignore+them...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1271048190/Some+thoughts+about+Vintage+Rolex+Price+Trends%26gt%3B%26gt%3B%26gt%3B

For Orchi....
the BEST read comes from this posting by Buddy Dreamer...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1271018613/I%27m+sure+Orchi+is+just+having+a+very+off+day+%3B%29

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1271058630/in+defence+of+buddy+Orchi